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Testing The Consistency Of The Commonly Available |
Cast Bullet BHN Test Equipment |
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Cast Bullet
BHN Tester Experiment |
yammerschooner (castbullets.com) |
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Quick links to results and relevant
information regarding specific tests: |
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Introduction
Casting Method:
All bullets in
this test were cast on a Ballisti-cast Mark II machine, which eliminated
many variables that may occur during the hand casting process. Bullets
came from the same batch of wheel weight alloy, and lead was dropped into
the molds at a temperature of between 683 and 688 degrees Fahrenheit. At
least two thousand bullets were cast prior to collection of the sample to
insure a constant mold temperature during the collection process.
Approximately 5.1 seconds passed between the filling of each mold and the
quench into water that was within a degree or two of 36 Fahrenheit.
Testing Method:
Bullets were cast
at the same time on March 23, 2008, and testers were asked to measure on
May 10, 2008. This extended time frame was designed to allow for age
hardening changes to subside. The scope of this test included 42 different
testers using a total of 47 different testing tools. Ten bullets were
supplied for each testing tool, and participants were instructed to test
the nose of the bullet in a manner consistent with their normal testing
procedures. Of the four major types of tester used, 13 were Cabine Tree,
eight were LBT, 12 were Lee, and nine were SAECO’S. In addition, four
other brands of tester were included, and one batch of bullets was tested
on regularly calibrated laboratory equipment. More information about the
lab testing can be found on the “lab” excel worksheet.
- At initial
glance, LBT and SAECO tools seem to have the highest standard deviation.
Throwing out the high LBT tool reading and eliminating the early test
that was redone with a different batch of bullets closer to the testing
date moves the standard deviation more into line with the Cabine Tree
and Lee testers.
- Cabine Tree,
LBT, and Lee tools appear to have been equally consistent within their
groups for this particular batch of bullets. SAECO seemed to have more
variance, due in part to conversion factors.
- SAECO and
Cabine Tree BHN estimates were more dependent on user conversion from
the raw data reading into a BHN number than the LBT and Lee tools.
- The Cabine Tree
numbers could be more accurate with more “mapping” of the correlation
between indent depth and actual lead hardness.
- LBT numbers
were closest to the actual lab results, with all other tools measuring
the samples as harder than reported by the laboratory. This is
especially true if the “high tester” set and the early duplicate test
are eliminated from the data. SAECO and Cabine Tree testers measured the
farthest from the actual lead hardness.
- Cabine Tree
tools produced the smallest extreme spread, while the LBT tools produced
the largest. If the LBT high test is removed, then the SAECO would
appear to have the highest extreme spread.
- The Lee tester
appeared to produce the most readings that were both consistent and
closest to the actual laboratory results. Although individually other
testers came in with slightly smaller standard deviations and numbers
that came in closer to calibrated equipment, the Lee appeared to have
the best combination between the two areas.
- The differences in the SAECO numbers raised the question of if there
was any correlation between the age of the tester and the BHN that was
reported. A query was sent out to the SAECO users to determine if their
tools were the older, metallic colored ones, or the newer, yellow
anodized aluminum ones. Testers 5, 9, 12, 16, and 17 were reported to be
the newer yellow testers. Testers 15, 26, and 44 were older, metal
colored units. This information seems to indicate there is not a
correlation between the jump in numbers on the SAECO'S and age of the
tools. There has been no response from tester 37 yet, but at this point
it is doubted the age of the tester (equipment) will shed much more
light on any age to measurement connection than the initial responses
already have.
- An experience that may be relevant to this experiment was reported
by user Dye (with SAECO testers 16 and 17). He sent his testers back to
the company when the measurements of one of his alloys did not come back
the same between the two testers. When they were returned to him they
still provided different readings. Although the deviance did not appear
to be present for this particular alloy (in this test), Dye's experience
may or may not shed light on other differences that have appeared
between SAECO'S in this test. There simply isn't currently enough
information collected to determine the cause of the differences beyond
the shadow of a doubt. It could be simply that this alloy was harder
than the "sweet spot" that this particular brand of tester measures
accurately.
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Tester: |
Person |
Bullet 1 |
Bullet 2 |
Bullet 3 |
Bullet 4 |
Bullet 5 |
Bullet 6 |
Bullet 7 |
Bullet 8 |
Bullet 9 |
Bullet 10 |
Average |
S.D. |
E.S. |
1.
Cabine Tree |
8 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
24.0 |
24.0 |
24.0 |
24.0 |
24.0 |
23.5 |
0.5 |
1.0 |
2.
Cabine Tree |
4 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
24.0 |
24.0 |
24.0 |
24.0 |
24.0 |
23.5 |
0.5 |
1.0 |
3.
Cabine Tree |
21 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
4.
Cabine Tree |
22 |
23.0 |
24.0 |
24.5 |
25.0 |
25.5 |
26.0 |
27.0 |
27.5 |
28.0 |
28.0 |
25.9 |
1.7 |
5.0 |
5.
Cabine Tree |
25 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
28.0 |
28.0 |
28.0 |
28.0 |
28.0 |
27.5 |
0.5 |
1.0 |
6.
Cabine Tree |
28 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
19.0 |
19.0 |
19.0 |
19.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
19.0 |
0.8 |
2.0 |
7.
Cabine Tree |
30 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
8.
Cabine Tree |
32 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
28.0 |
28.0 |
28.0 |
28.0 |
28.0 |
27.5 |
0.5 |
1.0 |
9.
Cabine Tree |
33 |
23.5 |
23.5 |
23.5 |
23.5 |
23.7 |
23.7 |
23.7 |
23.7 |
23.7 |
25.0 |
23.8 |
0.5 |
1.5 |
10.
Cabine Tree |
34 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
11.
Cabine Tree* |
38 |
25.0 |
25.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
27.0 |
28.0 |
26.7 |
0.9 |
3.0 |
12.
Cabine Tree |
40 |
24.5 |
25.0 |
25.0 |
25.3 |
25.5 |
25.5 |
25.6 |
26.4 |
26.4 |
26.8 |
25.6 |
0.7 |
2.3 |
13.
Cabine Tree |
47 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
Low
value |
18.0 |
High
value |
28.0 |
Average of
All Cabine Tree Testers Combined |
BHN |
S.D. |
E.S. |
24.1 |
2.5 |
10.0 |
* In
this test the actual number was 25+, but was changed to 25 for spread sheet
analysis. |
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Top of page |
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LBT |
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Tester: |
Person |
Bullet 1 |
Bullet 2 |
Bullet 3 |
Bullet 4 |
Bullet 5 |
Bullet 6 |
Bullet 7 |
Bullet 8 |
Bullet 9 |
Bullet 10 |
Average |
S.D. |
E.S. |
1.
LBT** |
1 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
21.0 |
21.0 |
21.0 |
21.0 |
23.0 |
23.0 |
21.0 |
1.2 |
3.0 |
2.
LBT** |
2 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
19.0 |
19.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
21.0 |
21.0 |
21.0 |
19.7 |
1.2 |
3.0 |
3.
LBT |
10 |
30.0 |
30.0 |
35.0 |
40.0 |
40.0 |
40.0 |
40.0 |
40.0 |
40.0 |
40.0 |
37.5 |
4.2 |
10.0 |
4.
LBT |
19 |
15.0 |
16.0 |
16.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
17.0 |
1.1 |
3.0 |
5.
LBT |
20 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
19.0 |
19.0 |
19.0 |
19.0 |
19.0 |
18.5 |
0.5 |
1.0 |
6.
LBT |
23 |
19.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
20.0 |
21.0 |
21.0 |
21.0 |
20.2 |
0.6 |
2.0 |
7.
LBT |
24 |
16.0 |
16.0 |
16.5 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.5 |
17.5 |
17.5 |
17.5 |
17.0 |
0.6 |
1.5 |
8.
LBT |
36 |
22.7 |
24.0 |
25.0 |
25.3 |
25.3 |
25.7 |
25.7 |
26.3 |
26.3 |
26.3 |
25.3 |
1.1 |
3.6 |
9.
LBT |
48 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
18.0 |
20.0 |
17.9 |
0.9 |
3.0 |
Low
value |
15.0 |
High
value |
40.0 |
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Average of All LBT Testers Combined
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BHN |
S.D. |
E.S. |
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21.6 |
6.4 |
25.0 |
** Test 1 and 2 for
LBT tool were done on the same tool on two separate dates. |
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Top of page |
|
Lee |
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Tester: |
Person |
Bullet 1 |
Bullet 2 |
Bullet 3 |
Bullet 4 |
Bullet 5 |
Bullet 6 |
Bullet 7 |
Bullet 8 |
Bullet 9 |
Bullet 10 |
Average |
S.D. |
E.S. |
1.
Lee |
3 |
20.9 |
23.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
27.2 |
24.6 |
1.5 |
6.3 |
2.
Lee |
6 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
3.
Lee |
7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.8 |
23.8 |
23.8 |
23.8 |
23.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
23.6 |
0.8 |
2.1 |
4.
Lee |
11 |
19.3 |
20.9 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
22.6 |
1.6 |
5.5 |
5.
Lee |
14 |
20.9 |
20.9 |
20.9 |
20.9 |
20.9 |
21.8 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
21.7 |
0.9 |
1.8 |
6.
Lee |
18 |
20.9 |
21.8 |
21.8 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.3 |
0.6 |
1.8 |
7.
Lee |
27 |
24.8 |
26.0 |
26.0 |
26.0 |
26.0 |
26.0 |
26.0 |
27.2 |
27.2 |
27.2 |
26.2 |
0.8 |
2.4 |
8.
Lee |
29 |
16.0 |
16.0 |
16.0 |
16.0 |
16.0 |
16.6 |
16.6 |
20.1 |
20.1 |
20.1 |
17.6 |
1.9 |
4.1 |
9.
Lee |
31 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
24.8 |
23.3 |
1.0 |
2.1 |
10.
Lee |
35 |
21.8 |
21.8 |
21.8 |
21.8 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.3 |
0.5 |
0.9 |
11.
Lee |
39 |
20.9 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.7 |
22.8 |
22.7 |
0.9 |
3.9 |
12.
Lee |
41 |
28.5 |
28.5 |
28.5 |
28.5 |
28.5 |
28.5 |
28.5 |
29.9 |
29.9 |
29.9 |
28.9 |
0.7 |
1.4 |
Low
value |
16.0 |
High
value |
29.9 |
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Average of All Lee Testers Combined
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BHN |
S.D. |
E.S. |
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23.4 |
2.8 |
13.9 |
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SAECO |
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Tester: |
Person |
Bullet 1 |
Bullet 2 |
Bullet 3 |
Bullet 4 |
Bullet 5 |
Bullet 6 |
Bullet 7 |
Bullet 8 |
Bullet 9 |
Bullet 10 |
Average |
S.D. |
E.S. |
1.
SAECO |
5 |
29.0 |
29.0 |
29.0 |
29.0 |
29.0 |
29.0 |
29.0 |
29.0 |
29.0 |
29.0 |
29.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
2.
SAECO |
9 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
17.0 |
18.0 |
17.1 |
0.3 |
1.0 |
3.
SAECO |
12 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
4.
SAECO |
15 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
5.
SAECO |
16 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
6.
SAECO |
17 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
35.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
7.
SAECO |
26 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
8.
SAECO |
37 |
18.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
21.6 |
1.3 |
4.0 |
9.
SAECO*** |
44 |
18.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
22.0 |
21.6 |
1.3 |
4.0 |
Low
value |
17.0 |
High
value |
35.0 |
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Average of All SAECO Testers Combined
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BHN |
S.D. |
E.S. |
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27.9 |
7.0 |
18.0 |
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*** In this test BHN numbers were not
provided, but estimated using similar numbers converted by other testers. |
Top of page |
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Shore Scleroscope |
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Tester: |
Person |
Bullet 1 |
Bullet 2 |
Bullet 3 |
Bullet 4 |
Bullet 5 |
Bullet 6 |
Bullet 7 |
Bullet 8 |
Bullet 9 |
Bullet 10 |
Average |
S.D. |
E.S. |
Shore Scleroscope |
42 |
18.3 |
18.3 |
18.3 |
18.5 |
18.8 |
18.8 |
18.8 |
18.8 |
19.0 |
19.8 |
18.7 |
0.5 |
1.5 |
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TEC |
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Tester: |
Person |
Bullet 1 |
Bullet 2 |
Bullet 3 |
Bullet 4 |
Bullet 5 |
Bullet 6 |
Bullet 7 |
Bullet 8 |
Bullet 9 |
Bullet 10 |
Average |
S.D. |
E.S. |
TEC |
43 |
21.4 |
21.9 |
21.9 |
21.9 |
21.9 |
21.9 |
21.9 |
21.9 |
24.5 |
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22.1 |
0.9 |
3.1 |
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Rockwell "R" scale |
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Tester: |
Person |
Bullet 1 |
Bullet 2 |
Bullet 3 |
Bullet 4 |
Bullet 5 |
Bullet 6 |
Bullet 7 |
Bullet 8 |
Bullet 9 |
Bullet 10 |
Average |
S.D. |
E.S. |
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13 |
105.0 |
106.0 |
106.0 |
107.0 |
107.0 |
107.5 |
108.0 |
108.0 |
108.0 |
108.5 |
107.1 |
1.1 |
3.5 |
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Rockwell "B" scale |
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Tester: |
Person |
Bullet 1 |
Bullet 2 |
Bullet 3 |
Bullet 4 |
Bullet 5 |
Bullet 6 |
Bullet 7 |
Bullet 8 |
Bullet 9 |
Bullet 10 |
Average |
S.D. |
E.S. |
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45 |
85.0 |
85.0 |
85.0 |
85.0 |
85.0 |
85.0 |
85.0 |
85.0 |
85.0 |
85.0 |
85.0 |
0.0 |
0.0 |
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Results of Lab BHN Test |
Lab Tested Hardness
- BHN |
Person |
Bullet 1 |
Bullet 2 |
Bullet 3 |
Bullet 4 |
Bullet 5 |
Bullet 6 |
Bullet 7 |
Bullet 8 |
Bullet 9 |
Bullet 10 |
Average |
S.D. |
E.S. |
46 |
18.8 |
19.1 |
19.1 |
19.8 |
19.8 |
19.9 |
19.9 |
20.3 |
20.5 |
20.6 |
19.8 |
0.6 |
1.8 |
Indent size (mm) |
46 |
0.918 |
0.920 |
0.924 |
0.932 |
0.933 |
0.934 |
0.934 |
0.950 |
0.950 |
0.956 |
0.935 |
0.0 |
0.038 |
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Lab Information:
Here is the data on the hardness
of the 10 bullets you sent to me. The indentations were made last
Friday night which is as close to the Saturday date you requested as
I could get. Last night I measured the diameters of each indentation
three times as shown in the attached photograph. This is an
extremely accurate measurement technique as it is done at 100X
magnification. The indentations were made with a 15 kilogram force
and using an indentation ball of 1/16 inches (1.587 mm) in diameter.
Each bullet was mounted in a cold setting epoxy mounting medium.
Then the surface of the mount using appropriate metallographic
technique was gently shaved by about 0.010 inches to provide a flat
surface to the indenter of the bullet nose. |
Top of page |
Shore Scleroscope Information: |
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Nose 1 |
Nose 2 |
Nose 3 |
Nose 4 |
Total |
Average |
15 |
15 |
14 |
15 |
59 |
14.75 |
15 |
15 |
15 |
15 |
60 |
15 |
16 |
16 |
16 |
15 |
63 |
15.75 |
15 |
16 |
15 |
16 |
62 |
15.5 |
16 |
16 |
16 |
16 |
64 |
16 |
15 |
15 |
15 |
16 |
61 |
15.25 |
15 |
16 |
15 |
16 |
62 |
15.5 |
16 |
15 |
16 |
15 |
62 |
15.5 |
15 |
15 |
16 |
15 |
61 |
15.25 |
17 |
17 |
16 |
16 |
66 |
16.5 |
Nose
+
Base |
Average |
Band |
Copper ref. |
33.5 |
16.75 |
14 |
13 |
33.25 |
16.625 |
14 |
12 |
34 |
17 |
14 |
12 |
34.25 |
17.125 |
12 |
12 |
34.5 |
17.25 |
12 |
13 |
34 |
17 |
13 |
12 |
34.5 |
17.25 |
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12 |
34.25 |
17.125 |
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13 |
33.5 |
16.75 |
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12 |
36.25 |
18.125 |
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12 |
Base
1 |
Base 2 |
Base 3 |
Base 4 |
Total |
Average |
18 |
18 |
19 |
20 |
75 |
18.75 |
18 |
18 |
18 |
19 |
73 |
18.25 |
18 |
17 |
19 |
19 |
73 |
18.25 |
20 |
19 |
18 |
18 |
75 |
18.75 |
19 |
19 |
19 |
17 |
74 |
18.5 |
19 |
20 |
17 |
19 |
75 |
18.75 |
20 |
20 |
18 |
18 |
76 |
19 |
19 |
19 |
18 |
19 |
75 |
18.75 |
18 |
19 |
17 |
19 |
73 |
18.25 |
19 |
20 |
20 |
20 |
79 |
18.75 |
|
|
The Scleroscope process depends on an average of multiple tests for
improved accuracy. Shore had in mind testing anything from bearing
metal to tool steel with a single tester.
For soft stuff I use the "magnifying hammer" marked .226. It seems to
correlate well with known samples. Since the Shore scale goes from 0
to 140, with 60 Shore being equal to 45 Rockwell "C" scale with the
standard hammer, conversion can be complex.
A practice session with known material is done first. I then calibrate
the hammer to a piece of annealed copper. I usually run a control hit
on the copper after each part as well.
I tested each bullet four times on the nose, and four times on the
base. I also tested a few right on the driving band out of curiosity.
The clamping of the bullet leaves a bigger mark than the test.
There were some surprises. The base is definitely harder than the
nose. Test after test. All of the samples were harder than the pure
annealed copper rod. Pure lead tests much softer than pure copper in
this tester, so I know this is good data. A piece of 60/40 solder was
tested at a reference of 10 with that hammer as well. Your stuff is
plenty hard.
For bullet work I usually use the Shore numbers as is. Converting to
BHN at the lower ranges can be deceiving. I have poured a lot of
bearings, and have used the comparative method for bearing alloys with
100% success.
By yammerschooner on castboolits.com May 2008
Comments on the tests by LASC:
These are not laboratory grade pieces of
equipment; no one should think they are, no one could afford them if they were.
What is important with these testers is consistency. It doesn't really matter if
a lab tested piece of lead is 20 BHN and your tester says it's 18 BHN and
someone else’s says 22. What is important for your handloads is that your tester
ALWAYS says 18 BHN plus or minus about 1 BHN and the other guys always says 22
plus/minus 1. That's close enough for you to keep accurate notes and use it to
assemble very consistent ammo from batch to batch.
In these experiments there were nine different LBT testers.
Of the 9 two were very clearly out of calibration, the remaining 7 testers where
easily consistent enough for consistent BHN readings for cast bullets. The other
two testers can be calibrated and should be. With the LBT testers if the two
erroneous tests are removed the seven remaining average 19.0 BHN (the lab
average was 19.8 BHN). With each of the brands tested if you throw out the
various obvious erroneous readings (chalk these readings up to machine and/or
operator error) they are easily close enough (accurate enough) for consistent
cast bullets.
I did an extensive long range BHN test with my 9" FA 357, many hundreds of
rounds in 5 shot groups that took a year and a half shooting scoped from the
bench at 150 meters. All loads where as identical as I could make them using
only virgin brass, powder, primers and alloy from the same lot numbers. BHN
changes ranged from air cooled WW @ 11 BHN to convection oven HT 30 BHN and many
BHN ranges in between. My revolver shot the best groups with the lowest S.D. and
E.S. at 17-18 BHN. A BHN range of 1 or 2 within the same group seemed to make no
difference in grouping. Shooting a group with a wide variation in BHN (say 15
BHN to 22 BHN within the same 5 shot group) destroyed groups and opened up both
S.D. and E.S.. Repeating the same tests over and over proved this out. Without a
consistent method of determining BHN "ranges" this testing would not have been
possible.
So yes, these testers are a valuable asset to the bullet caster. Does my tester
say an alloy is 18 BHN and the lab says no . . . its 20 BHN . . . Well, so what?
It doesn’t matter as long as mine always says 17-18. Consistency matters, an
exact match to lab results does not. If your casting technique is consistent
enough to keep your bullets within 1 BHN and your BHN testing tool is consistent
enough to measure within 1 BHN even the most demanding caster should be good to go.
Alloy consistency is important for long range top end loads grouping and these
tools are an important "aid" in assembling consistent cast bullet loads.
So what do these experiment prove? The differences between the various
testers, the simplicity of using the tester making consistent readings possible,
the users ability to use the tester consistently and interpret the results. This
test also has shown how close to the lab tested sample (most of) the various
testers really are.
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